Reliability of Vendor Products

[MadFiat]

EDIT: I'm gonna moderate myself here lol.... post was not clear and really didn't state things the way I wanted.

Re-Write is below lol...

As some of you know recently Tork's multiair springs have had issues stemming from production problems. I think this is a perfect example of why it's very important to allow vendors the time to properly develop and TEST production versions of parts. In this case, the manufacturer did not apparently make the parts to the proper specification. However this was not caught until customers had damage to their cars.

Tork is making good on the replacement of the springs, but that doesn't help those who paid for labor, or worse, whose engines have been seriously damaged.

Be careful when you're on the bleeding edge, and know that there's always a risk in trying something new.

[retrophit]

I’m out of the loop... what product are you referring to?

[texanbrit]

J&J was a short-shift adapter.

I believe the rest is referencing Tork's MA springs. Tork tested the springs, but the manufacturer made the production versions with the wrong material. The springs can fail under heat load.

It's a struggle for all vendors using 3rd party manufacturers. Even if a product has been in production for years the manufacturer could mess up the spec. Big companies struggle with this too, Takata air bags spring to mind.

Do what you can to verify and be open when there is an issue, that's all a manufacturer can do.

All we can really do is understand that all mods have risk. An engine mod is likely to have a big repair bill associated with it.

[MadFiat]

Not my best post lol I kept getting interrupted while writing. Upon re-reading not nearly as clear as I thought it was. However...

I just wanted to emphasize how important it is to not necessarily jump on a bandwagon no matter how good something looks until the risk-takers have hammered out all the issues first.

[retrophit]

Ahhh... yeah. Those springs seemed questionable;
the CONCEPT, to say noting of the execution.

[texanbrit]

It's the people who installed I feel a bit sorry for, they now have to either take them out or keep their fingers crossed until the new ones arrive.

I'm hoping that the people who had the springs fail don't have lasting damage. The car I know about has very sparkly oil, and a chunk of spring sat in the cylinder. I know that guy can't really afford the money or time to be down for an engine swap. Part of me says he shouldn't be upgrading engine internals, but understand the temptation and have some sympathy.

[Mp3guy]

Just revisiting here. I never dealt with Tork or even knew much about them as an aftermarket supplier, but after seeing this thing blow up on two other boards, I Googled the firm- this guy seems to have been a problem for years on mods for Velosters, Darts, and Ford STs just judging by what comes up on a message board search.
Personally, I never understood the need to switch the springs, considering what small advantage would have come from that much wrenching, but this is an absolute freaking disaster. It is apparently cheaper to swap the motor than to try to fix the broken one.

I don't think this firm understands what it takes to be an aftermarket supplier.

[wafflewizard]

John has personally replied to me mentioning that they have over 100k miles of testing on these springs before releasing to the public, which I find very hard to believe. Here is the quote from FCACHAT
"Not even sure what the MA units being torn up has to do with this, but our current number is 6. We have dealt with and addressed this, so if this MultiAir spring issue is all you have to continually fall back on, so be it.

Are you implying that we didn't have proper testing or development time on these?

5 of the original 6 cars are still running the orginal springs. I would have to double check but the combined mileage from those 6 cars is over 100k miles. One car has over 26k miles on it now. What would have been acceptable for "test and development" time?"

I don't think he know's how testing miles work. You dont just slap a modification on a car with 25k miles and when it hits 26k you claim OH WEVE TESTED FOR 26K miles! You count the literal miles the part has been on the car, the same way EVERY other manufacturer in the world does. I just felt like he thinks im an idiot and his claim of 100k miles of testing in less than what 3 months of time? An average daily driver can record maybe 12-15k miles a year, he is claiming that he has 6 cars with a combined total of 100k miles, which would make about 15k miles per car..that baffles me

Edit: adding link to closed topic thread- https://www.fcachat.com/forum/main-foru ... tune/page9
This link has my comment about the spring issue and his response.

[texanbrit]

I don't really want to move those caustic discussions to this forum; I'll just say that up front.

It is interesting to me that the pre-production cars are okay (regardless of the miles). The car that I know about failed in less than a month, so it does suggest that the production springs are not the same as the pre-production springs.

The bigger question to me is whether that upgrade is worth the risk. Even in a perfect world parts fail, so if it there is a 1 in 1000 failure rate (made up number) do you want to be the one with the failed MA? The disturbing part is I can feel my brain telling me that's it's 100% worth the risk for 5-10 extra HP (especially in the Pop where 5hp is a big jump). That probably says far more about me than the parts though.

I think testing is super hard for all the vendors. The number of serious fiat modders with actual disposable cash is probably much smaller than you'd imagine. If you expect to sell 20-30 upgraded turbos how many do you give away to test with? Every one you give away is a lost sale. How long do you test for? If you wait too long someone might pop up and further erode your limited customer base.

My belief is that's it's on us to be better consumers. We need to understand that even the best tested stuff fails sometimes, and really understand what the downstream impact of that failure might be. Then it's on our shoulders to take the risks. Vendors can probably help by being explicit about what testing has been done on what configurations, and never saying an upgrade is safe.

[mr16valve]

I have a set. They are sitting on my desk starting at me.
Mine are the "new" replacement springs. I ordered them on 1/7.
A few days later the order status was updated saying (not verbatim) there is an order placed for "new" springs, & they will ship (from Tork) when they arrive.
My springs arrived around 2/11.
I have been in contact with 3 people - geographically different areas & different driving / uses - and all 3 say that they absolutely make a difference for the better.
I am waiting for a mass of feedback before I can (in good conscious) install these.
Waiting.....